Transcription
Please do feel free to ask. Yes?
Q1: the unreality of past, future, and present
Yogi: The last comments you made, which you said were very important, in your talk, were around the moment. And I'm going to use probably the wrong words, because maybe the words that I took in may be [?] with something else I've been thinking about. The other thing that I've been thinking about is the reality of the present moment, and its reality depends on future and past, which is totally unreal, just [?], in a way. And [?] a little bit of what you were saying struck me as -- are you telling me that the moment is unreal, because actually I'm thinking the moment is real?
Rob: Yeah. Yes, I am. [laughter] So this is, I mean, I don't know if it just sounds abstract to some people. And maybe it does, especially if one's relatively new. But often, what we hear in spiritual teachings, meditation teachings, is that, "Don't go to the past, don't go to the future, because all that involves a lot of thinking, imagining, etc. The only thing that you can know is real is this moment: now, now, now, now, now." And as a meditative strategy, that's great. I mean, it definitely has its limits, but it's great. What it does is, it just cuts out a lot of complication, a lot of, basically, the way we cause suffering for ourselves and others by going too much into the future, into the past, and complicating things, and just saying, "Come to now, and come to the present moment," and in a way, "Honour the present moment."
[2:05] And what one finds, if one's faithful to that in practice, and one just keeps trying to do it and keeps trying to do it, keeps letting go of this compulsion of the mind to spin into the future or the past or both, the present moment begins to come alive, and has a real beauty and kind of vitality, a sparkle to it. It becomes radiant, something very beautiful. And most practitioners will feel this, that the more they come into the present moment, the more the present moment becomes something -- instead of being some tiny moment that you can't find in the midst of this span of time, it actually becomes huge and very substantial. Now, as I said, as a meditative strategy, that's great, and there are years of mileage in there, years of mileage, of really exploring that, and exploring the transformations in consciousness that that brings. But as an ultimate truth, it doesn't hold water. Unfortunately, though, you can get a lot of teachings that give the present moment a kind of ultimate truth, and (you know, I'm not going to name them) there are many in the Buddhist tradition as well, many, many in the Buddhist tradition and outside of the Buddhist tradition, different other traditions. And you know, 'Now,' capital letters and all that, and 'the moment,' etc.
But I feel the depth of the Dharma teaching goes, letting go of the past -- the Buddha's words -- "Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present" as something real and independently existing.[1] So yes, but most people need a long period of time of just coming into the present before you can let go of it. But ultimately speaking, if you talk about, yeah, what's a really comprehensive kind of freedom, it has to go beyond the notion of a present moment, because in the notion of a present moment, even if we kind of keep trying to get away from it, is the notion of a next moment and a future that's caught up in it. So it won't cut suffering at the root like that. Is that enough, or do you want more?
Yogi: Probably more ... but I don't want to take up time. I can certainly understand that now is coloured very much by perception, by [?] and everything else. But it still does feel a bit of a problem that the past is only made up of [?] tiny bits I know of it ... It's real if I remember something that really happened. So it still feels like it's the most real thing that there is, even though it might be coloured by all sorts of other factors, and it very rapidly turns into the past, or ...
Rob: Yeah, sure. And you could say it is the most real thing that there is. Does that make it real? Not quite, no. I mean, this is now talking about a very deep level of practice. But what happens is, one begins to start investigating what it is that gives rise to any experience, what it is that supports any experience in the moment. And one begins to look at that and kind of let go of that, and actually goes beyond the notion of experience and a present moment, and it begins to fade.
[5:54] So you could say, with practice, there's a kind of curve to it. You begin practising, everything is of course foggy, and you're struggling with all the thoughts and all this stuff, and that's very normal. And in time, one develops one's capacity to be really present, and to just let go of the past and future, and come, in a very alive way, into the present. What that does, as I said, is it gives the present moment a real vitality. So the present moment becomes sort of -- it gets, it feels like it has more substance, more colour, more presence to it.
After a while, though, in practice, one begins -- and this is very deep -- but one begins looking at what it is that's even supporting that experience of a present moment, and begins relaxing those things. And then the actual sense of a present moment and everything in it begins to taper off. Again, that's quite different from being distracted and caught in the past and the future. So it's a huge conversation, but I don't know if that gives you a little sense of it. Yeah? Okay. [laughs] Please, yeah.
Q2: releasing past traumas and planning for the future can be helpful, but time lacks independent existence
Yogi: Sorry. I don't completely agree with you that the past doesn't exist. I think that our body, even, our cells, carry the past -- and harm, especially traumatic events in the past -- with us. And with the meditation, sometimes you can get really in touch with that past or whatever [?]. And I think then it's actually something you can deal with, by releasing or whatever you can do with it. So I don't think that the past necessarily is unreal. And I think we carry the past with us. Equally, I also think the future has a space. And as we cannot, if we live in the reality, live without future, because we do naturally have to plan things. We have to make appointments. If I have a toothache, I get an appointment with the dentist in the future. So some practical things of the future we need to incorporate in our life as well. So ...
Rob: Yeah. Thank you. So this is, like I said, to some people listening, it probably just sounds completely abstract and intellectual. I'm not sure. But it's also important at a real level. So not saying the past doesn't exist and the future doesn't exist and the present -- because that would be stupid. Here we are having a conversation, and clearly it's taking part in the past. And what you just said is aimed in the present. And what you said was in the past, etc. So it exists at one level.
[8:26] And what you said about healing the past, and the past being stored in the body, can be really, really helpful. And we, people do experience that in meditation, do experience an arising of the past and a releasing and healing of the past -- very, very important. Is that the complete and ultimate truth of things? No. Is it a very useful, very healing, helpful way of looking at things sometimes? Absolutely, yes. Definitely. And this is a whole other discussion, but it's like, time exists dependently, not independently. We tend to think of time -- past, present, and future -- as having an independent existence. And the Buddha's saying, that it does not have. That doesn't mean that we cannot use time, plan for the future. You know, of course I have to plan, getting a train here and all that stuff, and now I'm going to catch one, hopefully. It involves that level of conventional reality.
But if one wants to go really deep, or one uses that level and also goes digging deeper beyond that -- so you can, in terms of practical organization, plan the future, and also use notions of the past, in terms of healing. And so it can be very healing. But there's also a level that they aren't quite true in the way that they seem to be. And holding those two together is a tall order, but possible.
I don't know -- it's a huge thing. I'm not sure if that's helpful or not. But not saying it's not useful to think of the past and the future. Of course it is. But they don't quite exist as independently and as inherently as they seem to.
Yogi: Maybe that's an experience we have to have in order to know.
Rob: I think that just someone sitting up here, me or someone else saying it is not going to make that much difference. The thing that makes a difference is really going into it oneself, and beginning to see. And it becomes something that one can't -- it gets to a point that one can't really question it.
[10:31] Now, if it goes to the point where one is then unable talk about the past and the future, then something's gone off balance there. What remains is an ability to use the conventions of the past, present, future, etc. But yeah, as you say, as you go into it, there are experiences that open, and an understanding that comes with that. But I also don't think that those kind of things are totally inaccessible to your average meditator, if such a thing exists. I don't know.
Q3: cutting off attachment and aversion to past, future, and present by seeing emptiness
Yogi: Is more the attachment or aversion to the past or the future what you're worried about?
Rob: Say again?
Yogi: The attachment or the aversion to the past or the future is what we're trying to avoid, isn't it?
Rob: Yes, you could say that.
Yogi: And it's there. You can't change. You don't know what's going to happen.
Rob: Well, it's attachment and aversion to the past and the future and to the present that we're, yeah, wanting to let go of, because attachment and aversion bring suffering with them. But there's a level at which what attachment needs is a notion of some thing. And without a notion of that thing, even if the thing is a past, or what happened in the past, or a future, or what will happen in the future -- if I don't really believe in that notion of a thing there in the past, the present, or future, then the attachment has nothing to hold on to. Again, you're talking about three questions at this level. But anyway, you're talking about a very deep level of practice. But if you cut that level, it's like attachment has nowhere to land. And it becomes something that cannot get a foothold, to use the Buddha's word. It cannot get a foothold.[2] So yes, it's the attachment. But if you really want to cut it at a very deep level, the Buddha says, look at the emptiness of these things.
Yogi: Thank you.
Rob: Yeah, please.
Q4: working with distracting thoughts; taking an interest the breath; prioritizing quality of attention over quantity
Yogi: This is more of a technical question. So when you meditate, I know that you're supposed to kind of either concentrate on your breath or [?] other techniques, [?] kind of bring your mind together around this one idea, and to reach to this level of stillness, nothingness, etc. And sometimes, like, you don't really have any fears. And you're like, okay, whatever it is, you can overcome it by questioning, like a line of reasoning you've [?] before. But then you still have all these remaining thoughts in your head that you're trying so hard to, like, not concentrate on. They're just sort of there. And you don't really care about them. They just come out of nowhere. So I just can't make sense of it. What are these thoughts? Like, what are these? Sometimes it's just random movie stars, for example, soundtracks, or concerts. Or sometimes it's just some silly thing that your neighbour says, or something you watched on television, something that is really insignificant to you. I mean -- or are they insignificant? And is there a higher ... I mean, the reason why they're in my life is because there is some significance. [?] But I really don't think so. So I don't know how to either get rid of them, or do you keep them, or ...? And that's the problem that I've been having with meditation.
Rob: If I understand you -- correct me if I haven't quite got what you're talking about, but -- so there's a whole bunch of flotsam and jetsam in the mind, just random blah blah blah that has, seems to have very little to do with anything. And the question is, does it have a significance? Or does it not have a significance? Should I get rid of it? Should I ignore it? Should I just leave it be? Should I explore it? Should I ...? Yeah, very important, because this is going to be an experience shared by 99.99 per cent of meditators, totally. A lot of the stuff that's floating around there is not worth the time it would take to scribble out whatever. It's just really -- it's not worth investigating. It's just stuff. And you'd do much better, we would do much better to just keep bringing the mind to the stillness of the breath, and enjoying that stillness, such as it is, and deepening in that.
Buddhadharma doesn't really talk much in terms of the subconscious and all that, more in terms of being on the lookout for what are called 'latent tendencies.' So when there are tendencies towards some -- what's your name?
Yogi 2: Jane.
Rob: Jane? Yeah, as Jane was saying, a tendency towards aversion or attachment or greed -- that's what you want to be more on the lookout for. The things in themselves are not significant. They're only significant if the mind grabs hold of them and makes a problem out of them, or wants them. Then you have to kind of investigate and try and let go in some way. But in themselves, they're just -- just let them be. They're not really worth anything. Is that what you're asking, or ...?
Yogi: No, I know what you mean. But is there a way to have ... Sometimes they're just distracting, and like, kind of takes your focus away from something you're doing, and there's something you're trying to think about. And they're just there. And you're just like, why are they ...? I don't want to think about this, but you just can't get rid of this loop.
Rob: Okay, yeah. Very common. So, really important to see its commonality. The more that you get frustrated with it, the more energy you're feeding into that loop. And you have to see that. So again, like I was saying in the talk, things are not independent from our reaction to them. And if I get ... [grumbling noises] You know, I get really frustrated with it, I'm basically injecting a whole lot of energy into that loop of thought. So then there has to be a real attitude of "It's just okay." It's like -- well, there aren't many birds around here, but if there were ... [laughter] If there were a bird, we're talking, and the birds were chirping outside -- it's like, it's okay. You know, it's really okay. We can just get on with having our conversation. I'm listening to you. You're listening to me. And maybe we're aware of the birds chirping, etc., or the buses out there. It's really not that much of a big deal.
So the relationship one has with this is really crucial. And in meditation, that's part of the art of it. Sometimes we think, "It's just about the breath, and I've just got to kind of, you know, hang on for grim life." There's a kind of foreground of attention, which is the breath, and the background of attention. And the background of attention includes, "What is my relationship to what's going on?" So in the background of attention, it's not about exploring all these thoughts. It's more like, "How tight am I getting around this? Am I getting frustrated? Am I getting judgmental? Am I getting disinterested, etc.?" There's a kind of background, just keeping that kind of relaxed, spacious, loose, etc. And that's really the ticket.
So that's one thing. And alongside that, if there's a way of really connecting with the breathing, in a way that feels very alive, so really bringing an interest and a connection to the breath -- so I said at one point today, I think, prioritizing quality of attention over quantity. We're, just this moment, really being alive to the breath. It's very tempting to kind of want to string together breaths in a row and kind of count the breaths, which can be very helpful sometimes. But you can also get this phenomenon, sort of, "4,900 and ..." [laughter] You're sort of there, but you're sort of not. And if you prioritize the quality, it can be really helpful. The mind gets interested in the breath, and less interested in this other stuff. So those two things. Yeah?
Yogi: Yeah.
Rob: Good. Please.
Q5: equanimity and loving-kindness
Yogi: Could you say a little about the practice of equanimity, and how that might help there, and how that practice compares, contrasts with loving-kindness?
Rob: Is there a specific situation you're thinking of, or just more general?
Yogi: Just generally, just curious about equanimity and loving-kindness.
Rob: Okay, well, in the Dharma, equanimity -- it's interesting. It's a word that we don't use much in English. But it's a word that has a number of different meanings. So one meaning is 'equanimity in the face of the suffering of another person.' So usually, for a heart that's open in compassion, that's caring for the world, realizing that there are limits to how much we can take care of in the world. And so, instead of that heart that's very open, tender, feeling the suffering in the world, instead of that heart being too blown about by the suffering, it brings a kind of steadiness. So there are reflections on realizing the limits of our actions, and dwelling on those reflections -- it's kind of like a balance to the compassion, to give it strength and stability. So there's that kind of equanimity.
And then there's the equanimity that's in relation to all things. So all things, all conditions of life, how steady can the consciousness, can the heart, the mind, be, and not so blown over? And the Buddha talks about eight worldly conditions, which you may have heard of. They're four pairs: so praise and blame, gain and loss, success and failure, and pleasure and pain.[3] So four pairs of opposites. And we usually like one side of those poles. We like praise, success, gain, and pleasure. And we're afraid, we're fearful of the other side. And he said this occurs to everyone, no matter who you are. It occurred to him, Jesus, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, you know, David Beckham ... [laughter] You name it. Whoever you are, it's going to happen. And how steady can the consciousness be? By reflecting on impermanence, by reflecting on all kinds of things, one develops that steadiness of the heart. And in a way, fear is an unsteadiness of the heart. So it's a counterbalance to fear.
Loving-kindness is a well-wishing, a wishing others well, and wishing oneself well. And as I said, the Buddha offered that initially as an antidote to fear, in just what it does -- it calms and soothes in that way. It's an interesting one. Don't really have time to go into it, but it's a real protection of the heart, loving-kindness. When the heart has a lot of loving-kindness, well, there's just less fear. There's just less to fear, really. It really is a protection against all kinds of forces. I'm not sure if that's answering, because you asked a very big question.
Yogi: Yeah.
Rob: Is there more?
Yogi: No, that's helpful.
Rob: Okay, good.
Q6: fear as protection for body and mind; fear as cause for stupidity
Yogi: Can fear not have a positive focus as well, to prevent you to do something really stupid? And to protect the body, [?] protect the mind?
Rob: Yeah, definitely, fear can have -- it probably, evolutionarily speaking, had that function. You know, you see a tiger with big teeth and jaws: "Oh," you know. "Run the other way!" That's -- yeah. Sure. It's just, how often, as human beings, has it gone over that limit and become something that's really not helpful? And in fact, as one of my teachers used to say, it's not people who don't have fear who do stupid things; it's in fear that we do stupid things. Fear makes us, oftentimes, do stupid things. How many times have you been in an interaction with someone, you're all flustered, and then you just say something that you think, "Oh, that's really dumb," or whatever? But yes, generally.
Q7: positive attachment, passion, and drive; healthy and unhealthy passion and attachment
Yogi: You talked about attachment being the cause of suffering. And I just wondered if you could say a bit more about -- sometimes when you really want to do something with a passion, and you have a passion for something, that can be positive. But that can also be a kind of attachment. And from what you said earlier, [?] you were saying, actually whether it's a positive attachment or a positive drive, it's about exploring it more.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so this is really important, because sometimes we can hear the teachings and assume that we're supposed to turn into these kind of completely grey, boring, you know ... [unenthusiastic noises] [laughter] Like that, and have no feelings or no passion, basically. I really think that's a mistake. And in a way, what practice should do is, it kind of liberates healthy passion. Put it that way.
So the Buddha talks about -- there are two words in Pali, which is the language of the Buddha. One is called chanda, and one is called taṇhā. Taṇhā translates as something like 'unquenchable thirst.' It's like, "I want, want, want. I want nice tastes, and I want this, and I want that, and I want, you know, someone to say I'm okay, and da-da-da." And it's just, it's endless. And whatever we get, it's not enough, and there's more, and there's more, and there's more.
Then there's chanda, which translates as something like 'will to do,' or the willingness to invest energy and engage in something. And that's healthy. So we come to practice, and I think it's really, I really like people to feel excited about their meditation practice, to really feel like they love it, and they want to do it, and the whole spiritual path, like it's just something that really speaks to their heart, and they want to do that. Or to want to serve the world, or to be generous. These are, can be, passions -- whatever way that is, through art or whatever.
I think that's really important. I think we need that. Oftentimes our passion is deadened, and it's often deadened by things like fear. Fear is a great is deadener of our aliveness of heart. So we have to look at, a kind of overarching question in the Dharma is, what leads to suffering? What, when I follow it, will lead to my suffering and the suffering of others? And what, when I follow it and support it, etc., will lead to freedom and lead to the well-being of myself and others?[4] And this the sort of fundamental question that the Buddha kept asking himself. And then it sort of sums up the whole of practice, you could say.
And so, what passions do we have that are actually healthy, that are to be cultivated, to be developed, to be explored? And then what will feed that kind of passion? What else in our life? You know, I could not know what my passion is, and maybe I'm living in a way, you know, I watch every night, I get home from work, and I chug a six-pack of beer, and then I turn on the TV for five hours. That's guaranteed to flatten my -- I probably won't find any sense of real, healthy passion in there. I'm deadening it. I'm dumbing it down.
Too much fear running around in my life will also squash my sense of passion, my connection, my discovery of it. What feeds it? What squashes it? What feeds unhealthy attachment? What squashes that? So there's a lot in there. And it's not -- well, there are certain parameters, but it's not for anyone else to tell you what's going to open it up. Does that ...?
Yogi: Yeah.
Rob: Just broadly speaking. Yeah, good.
Q8: fear and measuring one's development in practice
Yogi: In your talk earlier, you mentioned the relationship between your sense of self -- maybe ego, but sense of self, and the level of fear that can then drive maybe anxiety and so on. I get really frustrated because I don't really like to think of there being a sort of measurement of how developed one is in practice. Then you might get less anxiety, so that may be a measurement of how developed ... And I've just been sort of pondering that in my last meditation, sort of what that actually means. And what I came up with was, how do you get the sense of when you have a really furious fear? So you might be lying in bed, and robbers are coming, you know. And you know they're coming up the stairs. So, absolutely terrifying experience. You can't kind of contemplate that in meditation, because it's maybe so terrifying, it would -- you know, one can't get near to that visceral sort of feeling until it really happens to you.
And there are other circumstances in which this terrifying fear can come up. So if you've been ill, and you get better, and then maybe you're perhaps thinking it's going to happen again. And maybe you've been through some ghastly experience in a hospital, and you're going to have to do that again. So you can get these very visceral fears. And I've heard some meditators say, "Well, it's a kind of measurement of how developed you are, you know." Practise going to the dentist and not having any anaesthetic, you know. See how you do at that! [laughter] I get very uncomfortable with that kind of notion of how developed you are in this awful fear.
I haven't really asked a question. [laughter]
Rob: [laughs] Just trying to make sure ...
Yogi: I wouldn't worry about it. [laughter]
Rob: Well, we don't have much time. But let me ask you a question. Measurement is potentially a problem, but what is the problem that you're having with it?
Yogi: Well, you know, earlier today, when you said perhaps kind of conjure up some things that ... And I was just really trying to conjure up stuff that would get me near to that feeling. And I suppose, to some extent, you know ...
[29:18, recording ends]
