Transcription
Q1: working with sexual energy in meditation
Yogi: I've got a question. It sort of touches on, you were talking about sex earlier on. I'm not very knowledgeable about Tibetan practices, but I know they've got the tantric tradition.
Rob: Right.
Yogi: And is there a way you can you use the desire that you have -- so you're out there day to day, you see some person, you know; it can be regarded as a hindrance.
Rob: Sure.
Yogi: Yeah. Is there a way you can turn that to your advantage? Could you sit down in meditation, bring that sort of thing up and ...
Rob: Yeah, definitely. So yeah, this is a really important question, actually, I think. So one option is: "It's a hindrance. Cut it. Go to the soles of the feet or something. Put the mind somewhere else, somewhere neutral, hopefully, and away from that, because it's a hindrance, because it's desire, and because it's dangerous, playing with fire, you know." So that's completely valid, and you need to be able to do that sometimes -- really important meditation practice of just bringing the mind back, over and over. That muscle of being able to wrench it away from what it's become entangled in, and bring it back, it develops. That muscle gets stronger, yeah? That's important. Not neglecting that.
But, you know, one option is -- there are many options, but I'll just say one, because it's the simplest, okay? Usually what happens, for most people, when what you're describing happens, or you're sitting in meditation, and you're sitting, and they come into the mind -- someone, or some sexual image, or something -- usually, the mind gets lost in the image, and lost in fantasy. And that's daydreaming. That's the negative connotation of 'fantasy.' There's not the mindfulness there. And actually, it's not so in contact with the bodily feeling. Okay? If I almost let the fantasy do its thing, but don't give that the attention, pry my attention loose from the fantasy and back to the body, without trying to chop anything, or get rid of anything, or shove something back down in the hole where it came from, or whatever -- none of that, but actually pay attention to the bodily feeling, what I will find is that there is sexual -- what could we call it? -- sexual energy in the body. Okay? And if I just feel it as energy, and open up a space for it, that energy is very close to -- the Pali word is pīti, which is a kind of rapture or bliss that comes from concentration.
So energy is energy is energy. It can kind of get directed, subtly, in different directions. So there's a thing, mind: blah blah blah blah blah. Come to the body. Just let that be, but attention to the body, fill it out like we've been doing in the meditation. Fill it out. Allow that energy to do its thing, so it doesn't stay located in one area of the body. That's the thing. If you open up, it will spread. And that's nice energy. It becomes nice energy spreading in the body. And that's what I'm allowing and enjoying. And it will slightly transform the energy, but it takes a lot of the compulsive, sort of locked-in nature of the lostness there. The more you do that, the easier it will become. And you can almost, like, glide between energies, so to speak. Does that make sense?
Yogi: It does make sense, actually.
Rob: Yeah? So that would be the simplest. Is that okay?
Yogi: It's good, yeah. Yeah.
Rob: So practise that ...
Yogi: [inaudible] going out day to day, walking around.
Rob: Yeah, that's good, yeah. Probably it will be easier on the cushion first.
Yogi: Yeah.
Rob: With the, uh ... [laughter] So especially if you're busy, and you know, Oxford Street, and blaaagh, and there's just so much stimulation. So the more practice -- that's why we use this word 'practice' -- the more practice you get on the cushion, the more it actually becomes something you can do on the fly, so to speak, and with a lot of complexity of sensory stimulation. But I'd probably develop your -- if I say, 'develop your chops,' it's like a sort of musical phrase. Do you understand what that means? It's like, develop your capacity to do that. Yeah?
Yogi: Yeah.
Rob: See how it goes, yeah. But really important question, and this is much more common than people tend to -- much more common than the question gets raised publicly. It's important, so thank you, yeah. [4:44]
Q2: how much to work with an image; 'bare attention' and images; trusting images; using the energy body as a compass when engaging with images
Yogi: I have a question. If you have an image, how much do you work with it actively? I think that's one of the reasons why people say, "Well, this is not bare attention, because if it's bare attention, it'll just leave."
Rob: Well, that's an interesting thing. Did everyone hear that? "How much do you work with the image?" And: "That's why it's not bare attention, because if it's bare attention, the image will leave you."
I mean, to me, bare attention is a very problematic teaching. But let's go with it. It's an important teaching; it's just it runs into problems. But let's say I can give bare attention to an image, okay? But you see, part of the problem with bare attention is, it's not bare. There's no such thing as bare attention. So if the image leaves, it's actually because either I get distracted, or my attention is not bare, and it has a subtle sense of, "This is not important," or "This is papañca," or maybe not even as a thought, but a subtle dismissal or disregard may be enough, or "I don't like it. I'm a bit afraid of it." So it's actually not bare. It's got something subtle wrapped up in the attention which has an effect on it.
That relates to the second part of your question: how much do I work with an image? I'm actually always working with it, because there's always something or other in awareness that affects the object that awareness is aware of. That goes for physical pain, emotions -- I'll come back to this in the afternoon -- images, everything. It's always not separate from the way I'm engaging it. So having said that, if I can (and I threw it in the guided meditation just now), let's just throw in the idea, very subtly: this image comes -- throw in the idea that "This is important. There's something here that may be of value." And just entertain that idea. Then it's no longer bare, but it could still be relatively bare, in that I can focus, for example, on the -- what would you call it? -- the sense datum of the image itself.
So that's one way. But actually, what I want to get to with this strand of practice is, it's not so much that that's important. Like I said, with the bluebird, could have gone right into the feathers, and see this delicate filigree of whatnot. That's actually not, to me, that interesting. It's possible, for some people. What's more interesting is, here's this image, and -- like I use that bluebird as an example -- there was so much delicacy of resonance and love. It was very, very subtle. That's the thing that I'm [interested in]. And it's value-laden. It's laden with a sense of value. And that's the thing I'm paying attention to as I'm paying attention to the object. Does that make sense?
Extending your question, how much I work with it, this opens up a whole, huge area, because some people would say, "Yes. Okay. Like that black devil man? Okay. There's the image. Let's make him white, for instance, and take away the horns, because that's really scary. And make him into a bunny rabbit with, you know, whatever, and something cuddly or something." So the ego is basically coming in and deciding to change the image according to what the ego wants.
Now, we can do that, and it has a place, and it serves a function. I think what I want to get to with this image business is, what ends up being the most interesting thing is not the images themselves, but the conceptual framework that's operating, or frameworks that are possible, in relationship to images. So I can put the image in the service of the ego, or I can, again, play with the idea that maybe it has something bigger and more important than the ego's plans for it. And generally, I find that that thought itself unfolds something in pretty unexpected directions, and much more powerful. To me, it's a more interesting idea. You understand?
Yogi: I do.
Rob: But still it's not bare attention, because you're almost trusting the image, and not the mind's idea of, "Oh, it's grotesque," or "It's violent," or "It's weird," or whatever, "It can't be right." I'm giving you probably more than you asked for!
Yogi: No, very good.
Rob: Part of the reason of introducing this energy body thing is that you can use it as a navigator, as a compass. So it seems to me that when an image is 'right,' when it has something for the soul, for the psyche, it might disturb the mind, but something happens in this feeling, here [in the energy body]. Something becomes integrated. It feels right. There's a sense of alignment and harmony and integration that comes into the energy body, that I can recognize: "Oh, when that's there, I can trust this. It's right, even if it's weird or whatever, violent, or something." So I would use that as a compass. And then secondly, use the energy body to feel the resonances that are involved. Yeah? Have I gone off at a tangent, or is this ...?
Yogi: No, no. That's spot on.
Rob: Okay, good, good. I could say much more, but that's probably enough for now. Yes? [10:02]
Q3: techne, conceptual frameworks
Yogi: I thought it was interesting that we mentioned ontological, epistemological, and cosmological, but you didn't mention techne.
Rob: Techno ...?
Yogi: Techne. There's episteme and techne.
Rob: Ah. Tell me, what's that?
Yogi: Well, technique, and technology, which is kind of the [?] hardware. You're talking about techne. You were talking about sort of what 'archetypal' means, [?] archetypal ends, in a way. That's techne. And it's know-how.
Rob: Know-how? Yeah, yeah.
Yogi: I find that interesting, [?].
Rob: Yes, so the know-how is partly what we just said to this gentleman here. I don't know what your name is.
Yogi 2: John.
Rob: John. You know, I'm not going into it so much today, but there's a lot of technical possibilities and techne. But part of what you're calling techne is in the very conceptual framework that brings something alive, yeah.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah, exactly. Lovely. This is the case for all Dharma practice, whether it's imaginal, or whether I'm sitting and trying to be with a knee pain, or whatever it is: always the idea and the conceptuality affects what happens and what unfolds. It's part of, I think, what you're calling techne. Yeah. And really, really important. Yeah. It's great. Is that ...? Yeah? Good. Please.
Q4: imaginal practice vs daydreaming
Yogi: I'm new to the imaginal practice, and still trying to get [inaudible] pay attention to. Could you say a bit more about what's the difference between just thinking and what you call 'imaginal'?
Rob: Yeah. Maybe there's not-so-hard lines here. That's just a first response. I'm not sure. One thing I would say, which is important to say -- I'm not sure if it answers your question, but it's important to say: if I'm not in touch with the body, what I'm calling the energy body and the sense of resonance there, etc., then I'm just daydreaming. I'm lost, whether it's in thought or in fantasy or whatever. I'm lost. So that's one thing that sets what I would call 'imaginal practice' apart, is that it's very rooted in a sensitivity to the body, and an awareness of what is appearing, or what image-sense or whatever is resonating in the body, and its effects on the emotions. And so there will be, or there can be at times, ideas and thinking -- even thinking about, like what we said with John: "Well, how am I thinking about this image?" So that's all fine, completely fine. It can go on because, as I said, the conceptual frameworks, (A) there are many available, and (B) that's part of the whole thing. So it's not a problem if that's part of it.
Let's say I've got to catch a train later on, and then I have to see someone before that, and I start thinking, "Okay, if I make that train, then I'll get there at this time," you know, and maybe there are images involved in my planning or worrying about that -- that's probably not that rich. But that's something you could tell by the way this [the energy body] feels. You understand? I don't think I've answered your question! Oh, okay, good. [laughs] [13:50] Bill, yeah.
Q5: problems with the words 'image,' 'fantasy,' 'mythos'; grounding imaginal practice in the whole energy body space
Yogi: Rob, do you think that there's something problematic about the word 'image'? It's so visual.
Rob: Yeah, I do.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah, totally. That's why I said -- I don't know if you were here right at the beginning -- I said there must be a better word; I just don't know what it is yet. So I'll use these words, 'image,' 'fantasy,' and maybe 'mythos' interchangeably. The problem with 'image' is we think 'visual object.' That's why I said, look, the conceptual framework, my relationship with it, is part of what I'm talking about. And it may not be visual -- as I said, on the guitar or whatever. So yes, definitely. When I say 'fantasy,' the problem is that's got all kinds of connotation of negativity with it. When I say 'mythos,' it has the idea of some set myth of Greek something-or-other, or whatever, and I don't quite mean that either. Can you think of a better word, or a ...?
Yogi: No, I just know that, even hearing that little meditation, a little image appeared, and I was breathing through it, and I felt some kind of relief of suffering.
Rob: Yeah.
Yogi: But as soon as I started to daydream, I left my body. Suffering ...
Rob: You started to daydream?
Yogi: Yeah. As soon as I leave my body, the felt sense, I started to suffer pretty quickly! [laughs]
Rob: Sure. [laughs] Most people do it the other way, leaving the body as a way of trying not to suffer. But anyway, yeah. You're absolutely right, and that's why I would ground, or I'm trying to ground what I'm calling 'imaginal practice' very much in the sense of the body. And sometimes it will feel like -- remember I said, imagine those lines, or you say breathing through this image or something, or even the breath as image, the body as image, it's very directly grounding the two, grounding imaginal practice in the bodily sense, the energetic bodily sense. And it might be less direct. But there's always that connection. That's important.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah. Okay. Same. But in this kind of practice, yeah, I would probably encourage more this whole body space -- you know about this -- whole body, the energy space, and then it might be one area in that gets more interesting, or one area feels more or something. But that's all part of, it's part of the bigger space of awareness. And you're not losing that connection ever. Or when you lose it, you come back to it -- put it that way. Yeah. [16:08]
Q6: working with frightening or violent images; trusting images
Yogi: Well, you talked about this woman who, over a long period of time, she had developed a dialogue with this being that initially was frightening, that horned guy. But I'm not sure, or at least for me, there wasn't really -- I didn't really understand how that was transformed. So for instance, if one's images are, to a significant extent, frightening, or violent, you know, the frightening, nightmarish visions that somebody might be prone to, and another person not ...
Rob: Sure.
Yogi: If you get a lot of those images ...
Rob: Yeah.
Yogi: Then I'm not sure -- well, maybe I haven't heard you address how to work with those. The idea, I think, one of ideas that you were saying, you can go towards that. There's power there. There's liberation there. There's freedom there. It might be very frightening. So for instance, when I went to the basement, there was a very frightening image, and I thought, "No! I don't think so." And I came back out. And I went out the door. Then there's something radiant and wonderful. I thought, "I'll go with that!" [laughs]
Rob: Sure.
Yogi: But I might be meditating, and I might just have more, more, more frightening images.
Rob: Yeah. Okay. So I will address that this afternoon, but I'll say something now as well, because it's important. It's very important. I mean, it's related to what we said with John as well. So I'll repeat this this afternoon, but I'll say it now as well: we can think of 'the unconscious': "There is 'the unconscious,' this deep, dark sack of terrible monsters that might come up, lurking down there, waiting to leap up at any opening, crack that they might ..." And oftentimes, that's the way, because of certain psychological forms, that's the way we think about it.
But what I want to say -- and it's so worth repeating; it applies to image, but it applies to any perception at all, whether it's material or whatever -- that the way of relating to it and the way of conceiving always makes a difference. If I was working with someone individually, and that was the case, what you're describing, part of my job may be to say, "Not now. Maybe go more towards the light." But it might be that part of my job is actually communicating or holding a space where it feels safer to begin to approach, and approach more meditatively. Because remember, going back to that schizophrenic thing, what's characteristic is this [turning away]. Just like a nightmare, I'm running away from that monster. That monster's getting bigger and bigger and nastier and nastier. And if ever, in a nightmare, one has actually turned to face the monster, what happens? Oftentimes the monster transforms or something, through the relating with. In this situation with the person, as you're describing, I would say that, if I was working one on one, it's more part of my job to be able to do that.
Meditatively, one can also just cultivate more and more of a meditative space of well-being, which one then feels very, very resourced, very resourced. It's always available, that you can kind of rest in that, or have that around something. But if I was working one on one, it would be very much my place to create a safe space, communicate that this is maybe trustable, maybe for a short [time], and see what happens, and help hold it. And also communicate: it might not be what it appears to be at first. The monster is usually not what it appears to be at first. That black devil story -- she didn't know that. It really freaked her out. She didn't tell anyone; not her therapist, no one. Actually, in hindsight she was glad that she didn't, because she didn't want it therapized away or interpreted in a certain direction or whatever. So the transformation of relationship, and how that affected her, happened much slower than it needed to -- much slower, because she was actually like this [turning away]. Does this answer? Yeah? So sometimes you can find your own way to do it. Sometimes it's more like what I would see as my job, to help that, a little bit of opening, and then one gains more and more trust in the area. And that transforms, yeah, the experience. Okay.
