Transcription
Q1: what is the source of the interpretation that pīti is primary in first jhāna, sukha in second; the translations of the words pīti and sukha
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah. So Keren's asking about the interpretation of pīti being primary in the first jhāna, and sukha being primary in the second jhāna, and also the translation of those words. No, as far as I know, that's not in the Pali Canon, that the pīti is primary and the sukha is secondary, as far as I know. They're both factors of both the first and second jhāna, as far as I know. I guess I'm just speaking from experience -- also from how I was taught originally, or one of my teachers, in fact. So I'm just speaking from the way experience tends to mature. I think, even for people who are not told what to wait for, or don't even know what they're supposed to be looking for, it will just tend to mature that way.
As for the translations, yeah, it's interesting reading. Sometimes you get 'delight,' or 'pleasure,' or 'joy,' or all kinds of different translations. I'm just speaking from experience about pīti as predominantly felt physically pleasure, although it's a perception, and sukha as predominantly happiness, but that has a lot of wavelengths.
Boaz? Is that Boaz? Yeah.
Q2: the presence of ekaggatā in jhāna and other practices/states of consciousness
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah, so Boaz is asking, in terms of this word ekaggatā, the way I translate it, what makes it special as a jhānic factor, versus a factor that might be present in any insight practice? So actually, in the Abhidhamma, which, as I said, is -- I don't know what you'd call it -- very sort of black-and-white definitions about factors of consciousness in Theravādan Buddhism (actually, the Mahāyāna also have their own version), they say ekaggatā, as a factor, is present in every state of consciousness -- so not even just in meditation or just in jhāna. The mind always has one thing prominent to some degree. It's a question of how much is one thing prominent.
Then you would tend to think, "Okay, well, the ekaggatā of the eighth jhāna must be better than the ekaggatā of the first jhāna," but not necessarily. It can vary. I would say it can vary. But basically, it's just a factor, it's a fact of being conscious, of having a perception, that there's one thing that's kind of more prominent in the perception. So it's not particular to samādhi or jhāna practice. It gets developed more in jhāna practice. It becomes developed in a jhānic state or a samādhi state, but it's something that's there anyway with any moment of consciousness.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: It means it gets stronger and stronger, or you make it stronger and stronger. So, you know, a jhānic state is very absorbed. There's really just one thing. It's like you're really into that thing, more and more.
Q3: tuning to and emphasizing a specific quality for jhāna practice, or a different quality to move towards imaginal/soulmaking practice
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: So the question is, you've been told to sort of stay in the first jhāna as much as possible, but other states are coming up, and is it okay to go there? Should I go there and just trust them, or not? And I want to go there -- they're much nicer. Yeah. Can you describe what they are, what's going on, what kind of ...?
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Very settled? Yeah. Okay. So Wah is describing a place where it's like white velvet, and very settled, and like the breath of God is there, and very lovely. Yeah. So, you know, again, it's about context. If we're looking at things from a jhāna lens, of everything you just said, and we sort of map that onto a jhāna territory, which are the significant nimittas there, and which are the less significant nimittas? So if we're doing imaginal practice, soulmaking practice, then actually it's the breath of God that's the most significant thing there. And the fact that it's velvety is great, and the fact that it's serene is great, but actually it's the breath of God that is most significant.
If you're doing jhāna practice, then actually what's most significant is the serenity there. So it might be, from what you're saying -- if we had a longer conversation -- it might be that the serenity there is something akin to something in the third jhāna: it's much more kind of subtle and exquisite and lovely that way. It might be. We would have to have a slightly longer conversation. But if you want to go into that and explore it, it's almost like that needs to become the primary jhāna factor, the serenity. And it might be that the sense of the breath of God and the white velvet support it for a while, but after a while they'll become kind of secondary, and you realize, "Oh, it's a territory that is characterized primarily by that kind of serenity," and you recognize its particular bandwidths, and those other factors are secondary. But it depends what you want. If you want jhānas, then it depends what we emphasize, what we pull out of that mix of what's most important.
It's funny -- I only know you, really, from imaginal practice, so I don't know what else you've done in terms of insight practice and all that, but it could be, like I said today, it could be that for you there has been a training where the mind goes a lot towards a kind of serenity, and doesn't really like all this kind of bubbly stuff like that. So again, either you decide, "Actually, I'm not really into the jhāna practice. I want to make this an imaginal space." I guess my request would be: not on this retreat, but you can come back to that. You'll have plenty of access to all these kinds of things at other times. If you do want it to be jhāna, then the question becomes, "Okay, which first? Which should I develop first? Or should I even develop these things in parallel?" So demarcate, really get used to, as you're doing, "This state is definitely different than this one. I prefer that one, but I'm actually interested in mastering them both, and being able to hang out with them both, and finding them both lovely." And either you decide, "Okay, well, I'm going to do this first and that second, or that first and that second, or I'm going to do them kind of in parallel." Does that sound okay?
To me, there's nothing wrong with experiencing the breath of God there and all that; it's just that if that becomes primary, technically speaking, it takes you in a slightly different direction -- which is gorgeous and beautiful and incredibly fruitful, but it's slightly different than what we're doing. So it can be there as a support for a while, and it might be, but at some point you have to kind of hone in on what's the primary factor in any state. Does that answer?
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah, so this is one of the things -- it's hard, as I said, doing a retreat over time. What you need to do is come to an interview and describe in a bit more detail, and then we could map the jhānas on those, and that will tell you what to make more primary in each state if you want to develop the jhānas. And then exactly the order in which you develop your mastery of those, if that's what you want, that kind of is partly dependent on your history and things like that. But yeah, I guess this is one of the situations where you would need to have a bit of a map, because there's actually an infinite amount of lovely states that a human being can find themselves in -- infinite. When you start including soulmaking stuff, it becomes completely infinite. So it really depends. Certain honings, or a magnetism to this, or priority of this, will direct you in certain ways. And, you know, if you ask me, "Is it better, worse, whatever?", it's not really about that. It's just: what do we want to do right now? Does that make sense? Yeah?
I can't see who that is at the back.
Q4: mapping the jhānas in one-to-one interviews vs trying to put the whole map out at once
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Is there a reason I haven't listed out the eight jhānas? I did in one of the first two talks, but very quickly. The way I'm thinking about it is, okay, we're thinking mostly about pīti and the first jhāna, and then I'll give more detail about each jhāna. That's just one way of going about it, I guess. Is there a reason? Probably because that's where most people will be at.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Well, I read them very quickly. Why would you want that? To give you a sense of whether you're slipping into something or other else right now?
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I guess we could have done it that way. I would usually do that in an interview with someone, like I described, but it might be that it would take quite a lot of description from me at the front of each one for you to get an accurate sense of "Is that it? Or where is it?" So I'm not sure. I probably won't get the chance, but that would be another way of doing it. I think it would take really quite a lot of description, because there are a lot of states -- like when I talked about how some people who have done a lot of insight meditation get into a state of equanimity, and then I said, "Oh, actually I have to explain a few things about equanimity," because, for example, the Buddha talked about equanimity based on singleness, equanimity based on multiplicity,[1] and then there's equanimity in relation to the eight worldly conditions,[2] and then there's just equanimity as a kind of almost jhānic state based on multiplicity, almost a jhānic state based on singleness and stuff. So it might take quite a lot to kind of put all that out there, and then for you individually to sort of figure out where you are on that map. But I guess it's another way of doing it, yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure. What do you think?
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah. But it is, like I said, in individual teaching, that's quite a common thing for me, and I'm just listening, and I'm picking up the signals, and I would ask questions and stuff like that. I think teaching a group to do jhānas this way, with the whole idea of mastery and marinating, is ... quite a strange thing to do.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: That's what I mean, yeah. That's what I was trying to say before. It would take quite a lot of explanation of the different sort of shades: "No, it's something like this that you may have experienced, but actually it's a bit different ..." So I don't know. I feel if I do it now, I'd just be rattling them off again. I'm not sure what the point of that is. But do you want me to? I don't know. Would it be helpful? Or bring it to individual interviews, yeah. Okay.
Monica, yeah?
Q5: how jhāna practice both brings and takes energy; ways of increasing energy when there's tiredness
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Doing this whole practice takes a lot of energy, a lot of energy. I mean, it brings a lot of energy, but it takes a lot of energy. I think I said that at one point. It really does, much more than you think. So even when you've got the pīti there, and this kind of subtle work, and sustaining it, somehow, at the same time, it delivers a tremendous amount of energy, but it takes a lot of energy. So absolutely. The question is, okay, here's this pīti, and do I need to go back to the base practice, or is there a way I can just minutely change the way I'm working with it, that actually it's more sustainable? There's not always such a black-and-white answer, but generally, if you feel like you're getting tired, yeah, it's either time to rest, or time to maybe do the base practice.
Eventually, when you do a lot of this practice, it's like, okay, here I am working on, playing in the second jhāna, or whatever, and it's getting a little tired. I just go to the seventh jhāna and come back, and I've got loads of energy. So it's not necessarily you always go -- that's the thing about this: it's not always so formulaic. Or it might be I'm in the fourth jhāna, it's getting a little bit dull, and I go back to the first jhāna, and that gives me energy, or I go back to the breath. So I don't know that there are formulaic answers, really, and that's, to me, part of the whole improvised thing with it. Yeah. Or it could be I just stay with what I'm doing -- whatever it is, the pīti or whatever -- and there's a way of getting more energy there, finding more energy, or not, and then I have to do something different. Yeah? Okay.
Maybe last one. Did someone else ...? Is that Nicole?
Q6: using images to support pīti, etc.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah. So Nicole's asking, sometimes with the different kinds of pīti she experiences, there are sort of corresponding, different images, like a snowflake or something, that kind of seem to go with that image. And the image can kind of help trigger or support that pīti. And the question is: is that okay? Can I kind of go with the image? Or do I need to drop it as soon as possible?
Yeah, this is very common, actually, and I would say, again, it's a matter of intention. So the images can be there, as I say, in the background, but as long as they're helpful, if they're supporting the pīti and helping you get into it more, it's great. It's not a problem. They're in the background. And you can play with how much you get into the pīti, or how much the image goes. And sometimes, if you want, the image is quite primary for a while, but yeah, really what the primary thing needs to be is the pīti, so it would be a little bit secondary. But it might kick-start things, you know? Eventually, you don't need so much of those kick-starts. Like I said, it just comes. So you just remember the pīti.
What you're all going to learn is lots of little tricks for all the different stages here. So you'll learn lots of tricks to get you from the first to the second jhāna. I can give you some, and then you'll discover your own, like a snowflake image or whatever -- lots of little things. And after a while, you just find, "I actually don't need them any more." Other images might, for a long time in your jhāna practice, they just go with that jhāna, and they somehow just support it, but they're very much in the background mostly, but sometimes they can come a little more into the foreground to sort of ramp things up a little bit. Does that make sense? Yeah? Great.
Okay. Very last one. Roxanne?
Q7: subtlizing the attention when pīti becomes more relaxing and soft
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: If you're trying to go to sleep, or ...? Okay. So you're not talking about lying in bed and being troubled by pīti that doesn't let you sleep; you're talking about when you're on the cushion and there are different kinds of pīti. Sometimes it's really strong, and at other times it's so relaxing that you're going to sleep? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, there are different kinds of pīti. It might also be, though -- well, a couple of things. Why don't we just say this: when the pīti gets more relaxing and soft that way, then your attention on it needs to change. Maybe it's more subtle, so again, maybe the attention needs to get more subtle, you know? And maybe the enjoyment of that smoothness, etc. -- there's quite a subtle attention there, and a subtle way of enjoying it. You have to come into a certain stance with it.
What happens as we go more and more into the jhānas is we learn to pay attention with more subtle objects. We learn to sort of sustain our attention on more subtle objects. So that would be an example there. That's part of the art. I mean, it might be that another state is beginning to show itself, and pīti is actually not the primary thing there; it's a different body energy. But still, it's like, what is it to stay with that? And if you're actually falling asleep, you know, it's like, how can I be really alert with this, if that's there? Does that answer? Are you sure? Okay.
Yogi: [inaudible]
Rob: Yeah, it's an art to really be awake with something that's subtler and calmer. At every level, your attention has to get trained at every new level. So that could be part of what's happening there.
Okay. Let's have just a little quiet time together.
[silence]
Okay. Actually, just one more thing with Roxanne's question (Q7). You know, all the things we've said about subtle work and play might apply. So it might be that more opening needs to happen at that point. Again, sleeping, when we talked about the hindrances, sleeping is a kind of closing down. So we're very comfortable, and something just closes down, and actually you might need to open yourself with the idea of "How can I enjoy this to the max?" So is it more sustaining? Is it more opening? Is it more maximizing the enjoyment? Again, this question of what needs emphasizing now in the way that I'm working, of all the possibilities, and finding what actually helps. But it might be more a question of opening and finding the enjoyment in it -- so it's enjoyable, but actually I'm not maximizing the enjoyment, and I'm not opening to it in the right way, and that's what's descending into a sleepiness, yeah? So it could be something like that.